Llanelli

[piglet]

What a lovely and erudite exchange of views.
Well done both.

[html junkie]

And in the case of our team performances & player development so it did, as most of the posters on here recognised. Bit of a volte face by yourself as you constantly criticised everyone who criticised the coaching !

Yes, I did, because I felt it did the club no good. The point I made, as did several others, was that there were more appropriate, helpful ways to address any concerns that posters were having regarding the coaches. However, on the broader scale, and notwithstanding my continued disagreement with the way you (and others) expressed their views, events have proved you correct and I willingly concede that point.

I think your actual words were its "everything to do with coaching and practice". This is the point that I was taking up not the argument about Toby - I thought that was pretty clear !

My only point, originally, was that Toby might be tried at outside centre. It was you who generalised from the specific (another common logical fallacy) and illustrated your point with extreme examples that did not, actually, disprove my contention. By the way, and you may be aware of this, a current player who has recently started coaching our backs played successfully and professionally at 14 and 13. Perhaps you will argue that he had the instinct for both positions or that he started at 13 and moved out or that he played 90% of his rugby at 13 etc... I still think it shows that such an experiment could be attempted.

I didn't attempt to belittle your opinion as outrageous and inappropriate as my introduction that "Clearly I've gone to extremes to prove a point", clearly demonstrated.

Read that part of my comment again, John, and you'll see that I did not say you were belittling my opinion as outrageous and inappropriate but that you belittled it by employing "as outrageous and inappropriate an example of 'reductio ad absurdum' as I've ever seen".

And what about your comment that its "nothing to do with instincts" ? Using the same sensitivity - did that not try to belittle my opinion ?

No, that was a simple disagreement that I did not embellish with fallacious logic - entertaining and polemical though it was!

In the interests of civility and of not boring the pants off other readers, this is my last post on the matter. I look forward to reading your reply, if you choose to make one, but I will not respond as I feel I have made my position clear, as have you, and I can't see our opinions converging at any time soon.

[JohnCoffey]

And in the case of our team performances & player development so it did, as most of the posters on here recognised. Bit of a volte face by yourself as you constantly criticised everyone who criticised the coaching !

Yes, I did, because I felt it did the club no good. The point I made, as did several others, was that there were more appropriate, helpful ways to address any concerns that posters were having regarding the coaches. However, on the broader scale, and notwithstanding my continued disagreement with the way you (and others) expressed their views, events have proved you correct and I willingly concede that point.

I think your actual words were its "everything to do with coaching and practice". This is the point that I was taking up not the argument about Toby - I thought that was pretty clear !

My only point, originally, was that Toby might be tried at outside centre. It was you who generalised from the specific (another common logical fallacy) and illustrated your point with extreme examples that did not, actually, disprove my contention. By the way, and you may be aware of this, a current player who has recently started coaching our backs played successfully and professionally at 14 and 13. Perhaps you will argue that he had the instinct for both positions or that he started at 13 and moved out or that he played 90% of his rugby at 13 etc... I still think it shows that such an experiment could be attempted.

I didn't attempt to belittle your opinion as outrageous and inappropriate as my introduction that "Clearly I've gone to extremes to prove a point", clearly demonstrated.

Read that part of my comment again, John, and you'll see that I did not say you were belittling my opinion as outrageous and inappropriate but that you belittled it by employing "as outrageous and inappropriate an example of 'reductio ad absurdum' as I've ever seen".

And what about your comment that its "nothing to do with instincts" ? Using the same sensitivity - did that not try to belittle my opinion ?

No, that was a simple disagreement that I did not embellish with fallacious logic - entertaining and polemical though it was!

In the interests of civility and of not boring the pants off other readers, this is my last post on the matter. I look forward to reading your reply, if you choose to make one, but I will not respond as I feel I have made my position clear, as have you, and I can't see our opinions converging at any time soon.

Thank you - I appreciate your admission that I (& others) were correct. Professional sport is brutal & if one wants to get involved in it then they have to accept that fact. It is the elite end of the game & is unashamedly results driven - & rightly so. I am comfortable with the way I expressed my views as they were driven by what I thought were the best interests of the club - & they did have to go !

I accept that I generalised.

I think our back play has improved - I had heard a rumour that a current player has recently started coaching our backs. You have a more privileged position within the club than do I so I will take your post as confirmation of that situation. If the name is the same - & your description pretty much identifies him - then this was a player - so I hear as information starts to leak out - that tried to help our dire situation by suggesting improvements in the coaching content & organisation from very early & that players supported those suggestions. I also hear that those suggestions were constantly ignored by the previous coaches & his reward was to be ostracised & become the object of personal attacks.

I accept much of the rest of the content of your post.

And it's good night from him.......