Celtic League

Graham · Post by **Graham** » 01 Mar 2005 00:31

Got to be the Ospreys title surely? I just hope that Munster don't catch them.

String · Post by **String** » 01 Mar 2005 00:43

Although there is no way you can call any of the sides regional the ospreys are the only side who are attempting to show that its a new side and not same-old with a new name. In other words, the only one of the 4 sides making any sort of effort at all to become more inclusive.

Consequently they're the only new side i dont want to lose every game and wouldnt be upset if they won the celtic league.

The only thing is, the celtic league is poor, scots dont want it, irish dont want it, team selections for those 2 countries often development over and the standard compared to say the ZP/ERC is low.

Graham · Post by **Graham** » 01 Mar 2005 00:58

String wrote:Although there is no way you can call any of the sides regional the ospreys are the only side who are attempting to show that its a new side and not same-old with a new name. In other words, the only one of the 4 sides making any sort of effort at all to become more inclusive.

Consequently they're the only new side i dont want to lose every game and wouldnt be upset if they won the celtic league.

The only thing is, the celtic league is poor, scots dont want it, irish dont want it, team selections for those 2 countries often development over and the standard compared to say the ZP/ERC is low.

I like it because their fans are trying to keep things inclusive by chanting "Ospreys". Besides which, from what I've seen they are playing by far the best rugby out of the Welsh representation so far.

But I must agree with you, the Celtic League in general is pretty poor. Shame the English don't want to get involved with a British league. There might not be a Welsh team in the top 4, but at least we would get to see a greater variety and better class of rugby on the television.

RhysJervis · Post by **RhysJervis** » 02 Mar 2005 14:16

But look whats happened to the National team for England. Theres way too many foreign players playing in the Zurich, and thats why they are struggling. Just look at Northampton Saints, i remember one game last year where they had 12 foreigners playing in the match day team.

Unlike England, most players in the Celtic are Welsh, and therefore we are benefiting, big time.

String · Post by **String** » 02 Mar 2005 15:07

Rich coming from a newport fan who at times could field a non welsh XV, who threatened to take the WRU to court for tightening restrictions on foreigners and who still pay more money for overseas players than any other club.

England has far more clubs and a far bigger playing base. As a % of nationality the english professional system has more english qualified than wales does at the same level. Yes there are "more foreigners" there but they also have 10x the number of players so its expected.

Englands poor form of late a result of rebuilding after losing several crucial players in a short space of time. They miss Johnson extremely badly as he kept the team together and kept them focussed. They missed dallaglio for a similar thing. The back row is weakened with retirements. In short theyve lost 4 or 5 of their best players in a year or two. That will take a while to replace as the ones gone were absolutely world class players. You dont slot into a team already at worst class level - it takes time.

Add that to a change of coaching setup and its fairly clear why england arent doing as well at the moment. International rugby tends to work on a cycle, teams have periods of dominance and periods of poor play. No team is at the top 100% of the time.

String · Post by **String** » 02 Mar 2005 15:10

Graham wrote:Shame the English don't want to get involved with a British league. There might not be a Welsh team in the top 4, but at least we would get to see a greater variety and better class of rugby on the television.

I cant see why the english would want to. Currently they have a domestic competition thats of a higher standard with more clubs (all english) attracting crowds 5 or 6 times the size of the celtic league every game. For cross border they have the european cup.
Its not in Englands interest to change that as any change would more than likely be detrimental to the english cause.

Until murdoch starts flexing his muscle and the euro-league gets imposed i cant see a cross-border "league". However given the irish and scots dont want a full celtic league, have said so publically and the league cant attract crowds, money or sponsorship i can see the CL vanishing into obscurity before long. Its ONLY the wru that need the celtic league - Muppets superclubs need lots of games to try to recoup the losses theyre making. Nobody else needs it. Its future is on shakey ground.

Graham · Post by **Graham** » 02 Mar 2005 16:26

String wrote:I cant see why the english would want to. Currently they have a domestic competition thats of a higher standard with more clubs (all english) attracting crowds 5 or 6 times the size of the celtic league every game. For cross border they have the european cup.
Its not in Englands interest to change that as any change would more than likely be detrimental to the english cause.

True enough I suppose. Why would they want to play the Celtic teams and take the huge drop in gate receipts. It would do the Welsh cause more good but do nothing for the English clubs.

String wrote: I can see the CL vanishing into obscurity before long. Its ONLY the wru that need the celtic league - Muppets superclubs need lots of games to try to recoup the losses theyre making. Nobody else needs it. Its future is on shakey ground.

I have predicted that within 3 years the CL and the "alleged" regions will be gone. They will play out a pointless 3 years (new contract) of CL first.

RhysJervis · Post by **RhysJervis** » 02 Mar 2005 17:55

See Graham, you had to bring Newport in to it once again. What was that about keeping to the topic? Yet again one rule for one, a different one for others.

As Jonathan Davies has said many times, plain and simple, there are too many foreigners in the Zurich. Its as simple as that, they are keeping the younger English players out of the sides and therefore weakening the future England side.

I will speak to you in 3 years time, we will see at what level the regions are. I cant see them going anywhere. As Irish Defence Coach Mike Ford said earlier this season "like it or not, theres no other options for the Irish clubs, England doesnt want them, its a case of take what you're given"

String · Post by **String** » 02 Mar 2005 18:09

And when did Davies ever become anything other than a whining idiot? His commentries are poor, he has a lack of knowledge of modern laws and when asked to comment on most problems he replies "oh i dunno mun, its do'in my 'ed in" and thats it.

The IRFU managed quite happily with the ERC and inter-provincial championship, its budgetted to manage with just that and it wants just that. There are alternatives to the celtic league and they are proven working alternatives. The irish dont want it, dont take it seriously, dont field first sides and are generally fed up with it.

The "too many foreigners in the ZP" rule is laughable when you look at the ACTUAL numbers and % split.

3 years time theres a strong chance wales will be entirely amateur with most of its top players abroad. The WRU has massive and increasing debt, fan base has dropped by near 60% in some cases after muppet introduced superclubs. None of the new sides have come anywhere near breaking even. Cardiff owe the tax man £1m, loan outstanding of £3/4m and other losses on top. Llanelli are 1 and a bit million in the red and newport after brown has buggered off dont have enough fans or income to stop them losing the £1.5m a year brown currently funds for them.
Ospreys arent quite as bad but arent healthy either.

Muppet has taken 9 loss making pro clubs and turned it into 4 clubs making losses higher than the old 9 combined. Wonderful.

RhysJervis · Post by **RhysJervis** » 02 Mar 2005 18:20

Oh so critical of everybody else, but could you do the job? No, i didnt think so either.

Jon Davies is a very well respected pundit and past player. We all know why you are so bitter when it comes to the regions, because Ebbw ended up a below average Premiership side.

String · Post by **String** » 02 Mar 2005 18:27

Respected by who? Nobody really. He's just another ex player commentating on a game thats changed and unable to offer any changes.

Im confused how you could call the stand alone "superclubs" regions as well unless you've been brainwashed. Its clear for all to see there isnt a single true region and the ospreys the only entity even pretending things have changed.

Anyway, my points stand about the finances (all of which are public if you can be bothered to check). In either case, why are you here? Answer the question on the "dragons" board.

Graham · Post by **Graham** » 02 Mar 2005 18:34

RhysJervis wrote:See Graham, you had to bring Newport in to it once again. What was that about keeping to the topic? Yet again one rule for one, a different one for others.

Brilliant!! Rhys is now becoming delusional (or is it paranoid?).

Please point out where I have said "Newport" in my post on this section?

Please............. I'm dying to see this.

You really need to stop concentrating on scoring points against me and try to look at what you are posting. You really are making yourself look very silly by making false statements like that.

Just remember that I'm not the one who had a visit from the moderators today. Stop trying to be the victim here, and get on with posting on the mentioned subject.

RhysJervis · Post by **RhysJervis** » 02 Mar 2005 18:38

<Message removed you have been warned once already about abusive statements- admin>, everybody is entitled to their opinion, but if thats not enough for you - here are the facts.

A task force is to be set up by the RFU to assess plans to impose legally-binding restrictions on the maximum number of overseas personnel per club, with the mooted figure being at least 17 England-qualified players in each 22-man squads.

The idea stems from the belief that promising young English players are finding their progress marred by lack of first-team chances.

The proposal is sure to cause consternation amongst the clubs, and could lead to overseas players mounting legal challenges against any enforced quota system.

But former Lions boss Fran Cotton - who is Chairman of the RFU's Club England sub-committee - told Britain's Daily Mail newspaper that the interests of the England team must come first.

"This is by far the biggest single playing issue facing England over the next 10 years," said Cotton.

"If we do not resolve this, England will not punch their weight at international level - we will be flooded out by non-English players.

"If this proposal doesn't come into operation, you've got to question why the RFU is paying so much money to the clubs.

"Why pay in the region of £8m-9m [$14.6m-$16.4] annually to fund overseas players when we all realise that the wealth-creator is the success of the England team?"

Of the 180 players that started last weekend's six Zurich Premiership matches, only 103 qualify as English - and Cotton had some harsh words for a number of the remaining 77. Thats an incredible 42.78% of the match day teams.

"We want the quality overseas players. This is not a plan to get rid of these guys," said Cotton.

"What we don't want is to be flooded out by second-raters, which they are by implication, otherwise they'd be playing Super 12."

Oh, look who's right again! An incredible 42.78%. I rest my case Whitcombe. I know you think you have an answer for everything, but you cant argue with the facts! You might say theres still more English players playing in England, but exactly how many of them get on to the field? Not many by the looks of it.

RhysJervis · Post by **RhysJervis** » 02 Mar 2005 18:43

Rich coming from a newport fan who at times could field a non welsh XV, who threatened to take the WRU to court for tightening restrictions on foreigners and who still pay more money for overseas players than any other club.

Oh look at that Graham!!! So you did mention Newport. Must be the old age mate, you want to see someone about that.

Before you reply, we were talking about the Zurich Premiership and the English National Team, not Newport. So dont say it was relevant to the subject.

String · Post by **String** » 02 Mar 2005 18:45

RhysJervis wrote: Oh, look who's right again! An incredible 42.78%.

Which is nothing to do with squads.

You might say theres still more English players playing in England, but exactly how many of them get on to the field? Not many by the looks of it.

By sheer numbers far more than wales has of the equivalent. England has far more professional clubs with bigger squads, better reserve teams and as a result far more english players get high level exposure to rugby than their welsh equivalents.
fwiw the welsh statistic is around 40% depending on time of season you bother to take the measurments.